manderson
02-12 04:35 PM
actually Philippines has it's own category in the Visa Bulletin. So technically it's not part of ROW. But practically speaking EB3 ROW dates and Philippines EB3 (previously Schedule A Nurses) are usually very close...
ROW = Rest of the World. It refers to countries other than India, China, Mexico, and I believe Philippines.
ROW = Rest of the World. It refers to countries other than India, China, Mexico, and I believe Philippines.
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needhelp!
09-23 04:04 PM
I just finished sending the emails one at a time with a little customization.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pptN-jEpAiyd3snslhPjBfw
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pptN-jEpAiyd3snslhPjBfw
walking_dude
02-13 12:59 PM
On the contrary, fight for keeping the country limits will kill the movement as Indians who form more than 80% of IV will feel disillusioned and leave. Once that happens ROW can as well kiss the GC increase good bye.
Like grupak mentioned real workable solution is 1) Increase overall numbers (will benefit ROW as well as oversubscribed countries) 2) Eliminate the meaningless country quota. If there is an increase in overall numbers removal of country quotas will have very low impact on ROW. This is the fact.
But there are still some fanatics who pick up fights to keep the country quotas intact. If all of them quit IV damage will still be minimum, when compared to Indians (80% of IV) leaving. Movement will survive and thrive. How many ROW were there at DC rally? Of those present, half were on the stage. Of course I'm exaggerating, but not by much.
My challenge to ROW members who keep on harping about the split in the movement - PARTICIPATE!! Just being active on the forum and posting a hundred posts doesn't make you part of the movement. I hardly see many ROW members volunteering or accepting leadership roles. Unlike EB immigration, IV is open to everyone no matter where you were born. We don't have any 7% quota per country ! And yet, why are the active volunteers, leadership, contributors - the REAL movement- is disproportinately Indian.
Want to influence the movement, be a significant part of it. That's real democracy.
A row — also called a record or tuple—represents a single, implicitly structured data item in a table :) (I think the discussion becomes too hot, time to cool down, folks. The solution is not to remove per country limits, but to increase EB quota or at least to recapture lost visa numbers. Fight for removing per country limits will divide IV and is very unlikely to achieve something.)
Like grupak mentioned real workable solution is 1) Increase overall numbers (will benefit ROW as well as oversubscribed countries) 2) Eliminate the meaningless country quota. If there is an increase in overall numbers removal of country quotas will have very low impact on ROW. This is the fact.
But there are still some fanatics who pick up fights to keep the country quotas intact. If all of them quit IV damage will still be minimum, when compared to Indians (80% of IV) leaving. Movement will survive and thrive. How many ROW were there at DC rally? Of those present, half were on the stage. Of course I'm exaggerating, but not by much.
My challenge to ROW members who keep on harping about the split in the movement - PARTICIPATE!! Just being active on the forum and posting a hundred posts doesn't make you part of the movement. I hardly see many ROW members volunteering or accepting leadership roles. Unlike EB immigration, IV is open to everyone no matter where you were born. We don't have any 7% quota per country ! And yet, why are the active volunteers, leadership, contributors - the REAL movement- is disproportinately Indian.
Want to influence the movement, be a significant part of it. That's real democracy.
A row — also called a record or tuple—represents a single, implicitly structured data item in a table :) (I think the discussion becomes too hot, time to cool down, folks. The solution is not to remove per country limits, but to increase EB quota or at least to recapture lost visa numbers. Fight for removing per country limits will divide IV and is very unlikely to achieve something.)
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chanduv23
09-04 10:09 AM
Corruption, particularly in India, is like a software, which only gets better with every release. YSR took the corruption to a level unknown till now, I bet he'd put lalloo to shame. What development are you talking about. Don't you hear increase in inflation, or farmers suicide or land grabbing. If you haven't visited Hyderabad recently, you better do it soon, else by the time you visit next time you won't see hussain saagar, but a few multiplxes or luxury homes instead. I'm sure in the next release (read CB Naidu becoming CM), he might take it to a whole new level.
THE DOMINATING EVIL OF BLACK MONEY.
In the case of India, recent estimates of INDIAN (BLACK) MONEY outside India (in Countries like SWITZERLAND, )reached Rs.7.5 Million Crores (About US$1,500 Billion). Laying hands on this (Black) money is not in the power of the Indian Government.
Black Money circulating inside India appears to be no lesser in quantity than the outside component mentioned above.
Black money and corruption that can spread into the hitherto respected institutions like Judiciary, the Army, and the Bureaucracy in India may, one day, by moral degradation lead to a failed state. Black Money lends free access to the Criminal, Antinational, and Antisocial elements going beyond the control of the laws in place.
To-day�s civilized world has accepted the phenomenon of hiding money in Swiss Banks as �NOT ILLEGAL� obviously because the CREAM OF SOCIETY in the world owns that money. ��..
Government of India is not able to help honest, sincere tax payers particularly middle class families in the matter of providing quality Education, Healthcare for their families at reasonable cost. Education and Medical have become Biggest Money spinning businesses in India now. One has to shell out Rs. 30 to 50 Lakhs for a MBBS seat and about Rs. 5 to Rs.10 Lakhs for an Engineering seat in good colleges. How can middle class people can pay this money?. They are deprived of good education though, they pay taxes honestly and sincerely to government. It is really unfortunate. For people who have block money, these things do not matter
If you have to do business in India, IN ADDITION TO ALL THE OFFICIAL TAXES MENTIONED, LOT OF BRIBES ARE TO BE GIVEN ALMOST TO EVERY DEPARTMENT IN CITY (CORPORATION), STATE (PROVINCE), AND ALSO CENTRAL GOVERNMENTS. Some examples are: Police, Municipal officials, Electricity depat.officials, weights& measures inspector, Rowdies & Goondas, Political contributions, Subscriptions/Donations to RELIGIOUS GURUS ETC.
ALL MOST ALL THE CORRUPT OFFICIALS ARE CALLLED "PARTNERS IN BUSINESS WITHOUT CAPITAL AND COMMITMENT BUT FORCEBLY TAKE A PART OF PROFITS OF BUSINESS".
"CORRUPTION IS A WAY OF LIFE IN BUSINESS"
If you have to run a big company, you have to bribe many more officials. For some type of officials, WHO DO NOT TAKE CASH AS BRIBE, "GIFTS" ARE BEING GIVEN (GOLD, DRY FRUITS, VEHICLE DROPS, GUEST HOUSES ETC.) ON VARIOUS OCCATIONS, FESTIVALS ETC. ANY THING CAN BE DONE EVEN IN TIRUMALA TEMPLE, EDUCAIONAL INSTITUTIONS, MEDICAL PROFESSION WHICH ARE CONSIDERED TO BE HOLY PROFESSIONS.
THE AMOUNT TO BE GIVEN AS "BRIBE" IN BURIAL YARD(S) IN INDIA, WHEN A PERSON DIE, FOR BURNING THE BODY, FOR GETTING DEATH CERTIFICATE, (THESE ARE IN ADDITION TO OFFICIAL FEES PAID TO MUNICIPALIIES FOR BURNING THE BODY FOR FIRE WOOD ETC.). The amount to be spend after death in India now comes to Lakhs of Rupees for doing all types of cermonies, merging ashes in Ganga at Varanasi and other holy places, giving gifts/charities to pandits, giving advertisements in newspapers, arranging feasts BHOJANALU to thousands of people (so called relatives), friends. This is in addition to LARGE SUMS OF MONEY PAID TO DOCTORS FOR SO CALLED CURING OF SICKNESS.
In many cases, many middle class people becomes BEGGERS/PAUPERS after getting into hospitals, nursing homes etc. just before dyeing.
THE DOMINATING EVIL OF BLACK MONEY.
In the case of India, recent estimates of INDIAN (BLACK) MONEY outside India (in Countries like SWITZERLAND, )reached Rs.7.5 Million Crores (About US$1,500 Billion). Laying hands on this (Black) money is not in the power of the Indian Government.
Black Money circulating inside India appears to be no lesser in quantity than the outside component mentioned above.
Black money and corruption that can spread into the hitherto respected institutions like Judiciary, the Army, and the Bureaucracy in India may, one day, by moral degradation lead to a failed state. Black Money lends free access to the Criminal, Antinational, and Antisocial elements going beyond the control of the laws in place.
To-day�s civilized world has accepted the phenomenon of hiding money in Swiss Banks as �NOT ILLEGAL� obviously because the CREAM OF SOCIETY in the world owns that money. ��..
Government of India is not able to help honest, sincere tax payers particularly middle class families in the matter of providing quality Education, Healthcare for their families at reasonable cost. Education and Medical have become Biggest Money spinning businesses in India now. One has to shell out Rs. 30 to 50 Lakhs for a MBBS seat and about Rs. 5 to Rs.10 Lakhs for an Engineering seat in good colleges. How can middle class people can pay this money?. They are deprived of good education though, they pay taxes honestly and sincerely to government. It is really unfortunate. For people who have block money, these things do not matter
If you have to do business in India, IN ADDITION TO ALL THE OFFICIAL TAXES MENTIONED, LOT OF BRIBES ARE TO BE GIVEN ALMOST TO EVERY DEPARTMENT IN CITY (CORPORATION), STATE (PROVINCE), AND ALSO CENTRAL GOVERNMENTS. Some examples are: Police, Municipal officials, Electricity depat.officials, weights& measures inspector, Rowdies & Goondas, Political contributions, Subscriptions/Donations to RELIGIOUS GURUS ETC.
ALL MOST ALL THE CORRUPT OFFICIALS ARE CALLLED "PARTNERS IN BUSINESS WITHOUT CAPITAL AND COMMITMENT BUT FORCEBLY TAKE A PART OF PROFITS OF BUSINESS".
"CORRUPTION IS A WAY OF LIFE IN BUSINESS"
If you have to run a big company, you have to bribe many more officials. For some type of officials, WHO DO NOT TAKE CASH AS BRIBE, "GIFTS" ARE BEING GIVEN (GOLD, DRY FRUITS, VEHICLE DROPS, GUEST HOUSES ETC.) ON VARIOUS OCCATIONS, FESTIVALS ETC. ANY THING CAN BE DONE EVEN IN TIRUMALA TEMPLE, EDUCAIONAL INSTITUTIONS, MEDICAL PROFESSION WHICH ARE CONSIDERED TO BE HOLY PROFESSIONS.
THE AMOUNT TO BE GIVEN AS "BRIBE" IN BURIAL YARD(S) IN INDIA, WHEN A PERSON DIE, FOR BURNING THE BODY, FOR GETTING DEATH CERTIFICATE, (THESE ARE IN ADDITION TO OFFICIAL FEES PAID TO MUNICIPALIIES FOR BURNING THE BODY FOR FIRE WOOD ETC.). The amount to be spend after death in India now comes to Lakhs of Rupees for doing all types of cermonies, merging ashes in Ganga at Varanasi and other holy places, giving gifts/charities to pandits, giving advertisements in newspapers, arranging feasts BHOJANALU to thousands of people (so called relatives), friends. This is in addition to LARGE SUMS OF MONEY PAID TO DOCTORS FOR SO CALLED CURING OF SICKNESS.
In many cases, many middle class people becomes BEGGERS/PAUPERS after getting into hospitals, nursing homes etc. just before dyeing.
more...
ramus
07-03 11:09 PM
Cool... Please put her contact email so others can send her email too..
Thanks.
Just sent her a thank you note and my letter above.
Thanks.
Just sent her a thank you note and my letter above.
ramus
06-28 05:19 PM
I just did same.. I just asked to make sure we are filing on first day..
ok u guys have forced me to pose the same question to my HR/Attorney...awaiting response.
ok u guys have forced me to pose the same question to my HR/Attorney...awaiting response.
more...
luncheSpecials
02-15 04:38 PM
I totally blame bodyshoppers for the mess
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grupak
12-14 01:07 PM
villamonte6100 there was a thread some time back about people considering going to law school and becoming their own lawyers. What I took out of it was that its not that easy. Besides going to school, you have to pass some tough state exams. I am quite happy with my lawyer. I paid some dough but its much cheaper than going to law school, and saves me time and headache.
Going to law school is not for everyone, definitely not for me (fat books scares me :eek:). I like the suggestion by garybanz about getting a qualified opinion. Just so that we know.
Going to law school is not for everyone, definitely not for me (fat books scares me :eek:). I like the suggestion by garybanz about getting a qualified opinion. Just so that we know.
more...
poorslumdog
09-04 12:40 PM
Your handle name POORslumDOG shows your charactor.
1. Why you are here. (poor)
2. It shows where you are coming from.(slum)
3. Your real charactor (animal).
You are also here Mr.dealsnet...again I am telling you, use your peanut size brain if you have one. I heard Keral people good only for tea shop or Gulf. what are you doing here. You started your tea shop here. Do you sell medu vada also?
1. Why you are here. (poor)
2. It shows where you are coming from.(slum)
3. Your real charactor (animal).
You are also here Mr.dealsnet...again I am telling you, use your peanut size brain if you have one. I heard Keral people good only for tea shop or Gulf. what are you doing here. You started your tea shop here. Do you sell medu vada also?
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tikka
07-04 12:15 AM
Tikka,
Most of the folks probably went to sleep... so the last two digs which are opened recently are moving very slow...
Anyone from west coast - please help ...!!!
lets focus on this one..
http://digg.com/politics/U_S_Withdraws_Offer_of_60_000_Job_Based_Visas_Ange ring_Immigration_Lawyer/who
the faster it gets to 100 DIGS the popular the article will be. Will help give our issue exposure
thank you !!
Most of the folks probably went to sleep... so the last two digs which are opened recently are moving very slow...
Anyone from west coast - please help ...!!!
lets focus on this one..
http://digg.com/politics/U_S_Withdraws_Offer_of_60_000_Job_Based_Visas_Ange ring_Immigration_Lawyer/who
the faster it gets to 100 DIGS the popular the article will be. Will help give our issue exposure
thank you !!
more...
chanduv23
02-14 12:34 PM
Watch and see how fast the Michigan government will start issuing DL to H1B holders and to those who has pending I-485.
http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=567
https://www.aclumich.org/pdf/licensecomplaint.pdf
If you believe in it, stay put - gather support. Work towards legal opinion. Not sure if IV core endorses it, but use the forum to get support.
Those who are interested must consider forming a mailing list and create a group.
Many people just take the poll, and run away if approached. Let everyone participate wholeheartedly.
IV wants all members to help in the Admin fix - "Letter to the President" campaign and it is very essential we follow peaceful methods. Please help make this campaign successful.
http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=567
https://www.aclumich.org/pdf/licensecomplaint.pdf
If you believe in it, stay put - gather support. Work towards legal opinion. Not sure if IV core endorses it, but use the forum to get support.
Those who are interested must consider forming a mailing list and create a group.
Many people just take the poll, and run away if approached. Let everyone participate wholeheartedly.
IV wants all members to help in the Admin fix - "Letter to the President" campaign and it is very essential we follow peaceful methods. Please help make this campaign successful.
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Legal
07-25 09:13 PM
Next years numbers are not consequential to EB2I movement to be honest. Any realistic movement will depend on spillover. Consider that EB2I is statutorily limited to about 2800 visas(inclusive of family members) without spillover. Whereas spillover has the potential to contribute tens of thousands of visas.
Very true. My speculation :) is most EB2-I upto mid 2006 will be cleared up and the puny new numbers will trickle to keep the PD around June 2006, or slightly earlier rather than going to 2004 or earlier.
Very true. My speculation :) is most EB2-I upto mid 2006 will be cleared up and the puny new numbers will trickle to keep the PD around June 2006, or slightly earlier rather than going to 2004 or earlier.
more...
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BharatPremi
12-14 01:15 PM
I know. I work for a prestigious law firm and I know how hard it is to become a lawyer.
Now it definately interests me to know the reason behind your interpretation. Please enlighten us about your interpretation
Now it definately interests me to know the reason behind your interpretation. Please enlighten us about your interpretation
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a.j.2048
03-27 01:04 PM
I suspect there will be better leaders from the generation born after 1947. The next rung of leadership like Mayawati, Modi, Nitish Kumar, Shivraj Chauhan are all born after independence.
more...
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nixstor
03-16 03:13 PM
Unfortunately many companies are trying to woo people ignorant of retrogression and how severe retrogression is using these 2003 EB3 labor. As a matter of fact Nov 2002 EB3 labor might be of no use as well. Previously they used to ask for money, now its just the split.
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PlainSpeak
01-14 12:38 PM
PlainSpeak - instead of spending so much time on responding to everyone's criticism of you, why dont you go ahead and detail out the "how" of "what" you think IV should do.
Maybe there is a gap in the understanding of all the posters here in terms of "how" all what you have said will pan out.
Please be specific around who, when, to whom and using what means can the "what" of your proposition be accomplished. And while you are at it, it will also be useful to lay out how and which of the activities you could personally be of help (by devoting time/ money/ energy/ All/ Some Combination).
For all you know, it might open the eyes of a lot of people here.
PlainSpeak - instead of spending so much time on responding to everyone's criticism of you, why dont you go ahead and detail out the "how" of "what" you think IV should do.
My friend if all you abusive people wil stop criticing and providing abusive comments then we can start on teh actual work. I am not going to jump through hoops just because you have asked me to. First let me see whether the attitude of the people out here (Yes i mean you abusive people) will change becasue without doing that if i start on the implementing what i am talkinbg about all you guys will do is sabotage the talk
Maybe there is a gap in the understanding of all the posters here in terms of "how" all what you have said will pan out.
This is a forum right. How what where and when will have to be discussed and worked out (And yes i do not want any credit for it so name it GCHope2001's grand idea for all i care), but ....
If everyone is against the plan from the start (and being vocally abusive about it) how do you think anything will move forward on this
Please be specific around who, when, to whom and using what means can the "what" of your proposition be accomplished. And while you are at it, it will also be useful to lay out how and which of the activities you could personally be of help (by devoting time/ money/ energy/ All/ Some Combination).
Only if i think at least 25 % of all you senior abusive member even agree in principle with what is being proposed. Heck my idea is for releif for EB retrogressed persons and all i get from all you senior memebers and donors is oh he is lazy skill less eb3 and he is doing it to get his creen card and other comments and everyone is all about lets bash this person and oh wow she is a gal so lets do some crude women joke (There was a guy ealier who talked about proper up bringing. I do not see you here any more)
And yes my friends please use this as an oppurtunity to start off a new discussion about how he needs help. My friends everyone needs help. Even you. Even core
For all you know, it might open the eyes of a lot of people here. How can some one open up the eyes of the people who bent on keeping it closed. First is there a concensus on this. I do not see any. Any you want me to stand up ubn front of all these people batying for blood and give a detail idea of ho wi wil accomplish. I do not talk to people like that why would i talk about any plan to those who do not agree with even discussing it forget about implementing it
Maybe there is a gap in the understanding of all the posters here in terms of "how" all what you have said will pan out.
Please be specific around who, when, to whom and using what means can the "what" of your proposition be accomplished. And while you are at it, it will also be useful to lay out how and which of the activities you could personally be of help (by devoting time/ money/ energy/ All/ Some Combination).
For all you know, it might open the eyes of a lot of people here.
PlainSpeak - instead of spending so much time on responding to everyone's criticism of you, why dont you go ahead and detail out the "how" of "what" you think IV should do.
My friend if all you abusive people wil stop criticing and providing abusive comments then we can start on teh actual work. I am not going to jump through hoops just because you have asked me to. First let me see whether the attitude of the people out here (Yes i mean you abusive people) will change becasue without doing that if i start on the implementing what i am talkinbg about all you guys will do is sabotage the talk
Maybe there is a gap in the understanding of all the posters here in terms of "how" all what you have said will pan out.
This is a forum right. How what where and when will have to be discussed and worked out (And yes i do not want any credit for it so name it GCHope2001's grand idea for all i care), but ....
If everyone is against the plan from the start (and being vocally abusive about it) how do you think anything will move forward on this
Please be specific around who, when, to whom and using what means can the "what" of your proposition be accomplished. And while you are at it, it will also be useful to lay out how and which of the activities you could personally be of help (by devoting time/ money/ energy/ All/ Some Combination).
Only if i think at least 25 % of all you senior abusive member even agree in principle with what is being proposed. Heck my idea is for releif for EB retrogressed persons and all i get from all you senior memebers and donors is oh he is lazy skill less eb3 and he is doing it to get his creen card and other comments and everyone is all about lets bash this person and oh wow she is a gal so lets do some crude women joke (There was a guy ealier who talked about proper up bringing. I do not see you here any more)
And yes my friends please use this as an oppurtunity to start off a new discussion about how he needs help. My friends everyone needs help. Even you. Even core
For all you know, it might open the eyes of a lot of people here. How can some one open up the eyes of the people who bent on keeping it closed. First is there a concensus on this. I do not see any. Any you want me to stand up ubn front of all these people batying for blood and give a detail idea of ho wi wil accomplish. I do not talk to people like that why would i talk about any plan to those who do not agree with even discussing it forget about implementing it
more...
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Waitingnvain
08-30 11:10 AM
Applying for Canadian PR is real easy. Do it on your own. We got our case approved in a year.
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thepaew
12-14 04:30 PM
Well Said - I feel that this discussion is counterproductive. In my opinion (I am no lawyer but I feel strongly about this), there is no constitutional remedy available. The only accomplishment may be that we alienate non-Indian members.
I know what I am about to say will trigger a lot of reaction and some resentment, but it has to be said on behalf of those who are not Indian. I think the per country limit is to ensure that people of all nationalities and races have an equal opportunity to obtain a green card and to ensure that no one nationality, group, or even sector (i.e. IT) monopolizes the so few visas that are available. In fact, in the visa lottery, countries become excluded when the number of immigrants from them reach a certain point, so we are lucky they do not do that in the Employment-based system!
I think that by wanting to remove the per country limit so more Indians can avail of the green card quota is both asking for "special treatment" and a slap in the face for all the non-Indian IV members. The more I read the threads on this site, the more I feel that this organization is geared just to one ethnic group. I am sure that Indians probably make up the majority of members, but the founders of IV (I hope) did not want this organization to become one-sided! Please be considerate of ALL members and try to come up with suggestions that would benefit ALL members!!!:mad:
I know what I am about to say will trigger a lot of reaction and some resentment, but it has to be said on behalf of those who are not Indian. I think the per country limit is to ensure that people of all nationalities and races have an equal opportunity to obtain a green card and to ensure that no one nationality, group, or even sector (i.e. IT) monopolizes the so few visas that are available. In fact, in the visa lottery, countries become excluded when the number of immigrants from them reach a certain point, so we are lucky they do not do that in the Employment-based system!
I think that by wanting to remove the per country limit so more Indians can avail of the green card quota is both asking for "special treatment" and a slap in the face for all the non-Indian IV members. The more I read the threads on this site, the more I feel that this organization is geared just to one ethnic group. I am sure that Indians probably make up the majority of members, but the founders of IV (I hope) did not want this organization to become one-sided! Please be considerate of ALL members and try to come up with suggestions that would benefit ALL members!!!:mad:
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andy007
07-03 10:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.wesh.com/money/13616272/detail.html
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Worl...08500-sun.html
http://www.kswo.com/Global/story.asp?S=6740337
http://www.onelocalnews.com/howellti...news&id=129492
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow/2170349.cms
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jul...nCards,00.html
Thanks i am looking for CNN also ..
http://www.wesh.com/money/13616272/detail.html
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Worl...08500-sun.html
http://www.kswo.com/Global/story.asp?S=6740337
http://www.onelocalnews.com/howellti...news&id=129492
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow/2170349.cms
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jul...nCards,00.html
Thanks i am looking for CNN also ..
TeddyKoochu
09-17 03:09 PM
Yeah that might be true.
The rate at which 2004 folks are getting approved that probably only 300 applications are left for pre Jan 2005. More approvals augur well for everybody.
The rate at which 2004 folks are getting approved that probably only 300 applications are left for pre Jan 2005. More approvals augur well for everybody.
NKR
02-15 07:06 PM
People would like to see India as land of snake charmers, cows blocking roads etc.
They can't digest IITians coming to MIT, Stanford etc. :-)
That's taking it a bit too far, I might disagree on most of the things ROW people say but I am not here to make enemies. I have waited and I do not want others also to wait, I just want everybody (including ROW people) to get out of this mess as fast as possible.
They can't digest IITians coming to MIT, Stanford etc. :-)
That's taking it a bit too far, I might disagree on most of the things ROW people say but I am not here to make enemies. I have waited and I do not want others also to wait, I just want everybody (including ROW people) to get out of this mess as fast as possible.
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